MFN: Neutral
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Welcome to We Don't Have a Clue About Love. I'm Mim Kempson here with Katie Eden Todd. We're exploring MFN and where we've landed is neutral. That's what we're covering in today's episode. And I want to start by explaining what I've noticed when I introduce as a therapist MFN to my clients and I get them to guess what each three might be.
Something I notice is people will divide neutral traits into masculine and feminine. You know, it's its own energy that needs to be named separately. And that's what Katie's work does. So I'm really curious to start by hearing how you, Katie, came up with neutral as its own kind of energy.
Great question Mim, and it was only a few years ago that I did. So, very briefly, 23 years ago I started writing and working out archetypes, which are our personality traits, light and shadow, compulsive traits, connected to mythology, very primal, very very powerful. They live in us. Wrote 113, wrote a book on that. Then I don't know, 10 or more years ago, I started writing out what I called personas with persona archetypes and 113 was too many. It was too complex for people. So then that brought it down to 12 and that was great. And I still work with that and that's a wonderful system. But then when it came to working on relationships in particular, how do we relate?
Was there a simpler? Could we even do it one more? So I looked at masculine and feminine that have been around for eons and many people talk about the masculine and feminine and that that's marrying the two uniting the two is one of the big spiritual lessons of everyone's life. But when I started looking at that, there were persona archetypes that I'd written that did not fit at all into masculine and feminine, like just didn't. Four did. Four did, there were four that didn't. And I was working with my son in law, Aby, at the time, and we were having a discussion around Christmas, about four years ago. And we went, we were talking, and suddenly it's like, they're very neutral, aren't they? I said. And they went, Oh my God! These are neutral. They're stoic. They're pragmatic. They're rational. They're factual. They're steady. They're reliable. They're independent. They're responsible. They're trustworthy. All of these things. They do research. They're not impulsive. They have a very careful and contained way of being emotionally. And there's a whole side to them, light and shadow, just like masculine has light and shadow and feminine has light and shadow. And when I did that, everyone was covered. And that's how I knew when I had enough personas. So far I've not met anyone and I can't find who they are in a lot of uniqueness and complexity. So it became masculine, feminine, neutral. And neutrals are really happy to be called primary neutrals or to have neutral second because they know they are. Like it's so obvious to them. And they wouldn't want to be called that and that because it's not actually how they relate to people. It's not how they operate. It's not how they process.
And to paint this picture further, I noted down some key phrases that I think if you hear
someone saying them, you can go,
um, they're going to have high neutral.
So they will talk about work life balance. They want things to be balanced. That's a neutral value. They'll say, this isn't the time or place.
Don't be silly. Don't be stupid. That's just the way things are. You use that word incorrectly. I can't listen to you when you're emotional, when you're crying, when you're angry. Oh, we can solve our problems in our relationship by improving our communication. We just need to find good strategies. These are all neutral language and values.
I can, I can hear people laughing as I listen and watch this now, Mim. I really can because I go, Oh my God, that's so and so and so and so. That is so how they are. And how they like to be, um, they don't want to be rushed and pushed to do things before they're ready. And they wouldn't have all the facts.
They wouldn't know at first. They have a deepest fear of public humiliation. Let's put that right there on the table. To make a mistake, to fail publicly feels like something they could never recover from. To financially fail is a terror. To lose their home. Financial security really matters. Job security really matters. And I always say to my clients and the groups that I work with, if this is a key value, and some of my children have this, if this is a key value, Then we have to honor it. We can't say don't be like that. But you can also, they, neutrals need to understand that others don't have that value. They have a different set of values that are just as valid. But we have been brought up in a world and our education system very strongly, Mim, that neutral values are gold, star, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Because there is a conformity here of following the path, the normal path, the system, being incredibly responsible and reliable. A good citizen making a difference to your community is also in there. Learning, improving yourself, training, not being lazy. They hate lazy. They hate sentimentality. They hate gushy emotional displays. When they see people do that, they just go, Oh, I could never show my face in public again if that was me. It's never going to be them. They come across as being quite cool and aloof.
And because they're in their mind thinking they'll have this face and feminine's a masculine think, they're judging me. They think I'm stupid. They think this and they're not, they're actually inside of their head, wondering about this. They've got a list here. I'll be doing this. I've got that to do and I've got this. They don't stop. They actually find it very difficult to connect in with themselves. Mindfulness matters. to neutrals. They believe they're open minded. I'm being so kind here. I think it's time I just threw it up and opened up a little bit. They could say they're very open minded, but they actually come from a place where they need control, which means their thinking can be closed minded. Especially to spiritual, psychic, emotional, things they're not good at. Where's your evidence? Where's your science? Well, you're a bit suspect, aren't you? Like, obviously not quite intelligent enough to understand that that doesn't exist and that you need to. There must be a crutch or something that you have. You know, what a shame. Oh, I wouldn't have thought you were like that. Ha, ha, ha, ha. So people like me, you've got a very good brain, thanks neutrals. I'll debate you any time you like. Pick me. But who goes the other side as well, the intangible world as well as the tangible. I have to be very careful talking to neutrals because it doesn't take a lot before they shut me down and go, that's rubbish, that's silly, that, but these are real experiences for me.
These are real experiences for people and they can want to debate the necessity to go into feelings, to go into hard times and emotional fractures. Why should I bother? They want to bypass it and find a cognitive strategy and a behavioral strategy. So I can. Just learn to do it differently. And I don't want to have to deal with anything under here. The problem is neutrals burn out, they get physical burnout. They can have a crisis, they can have a physical crisis, you know, where the body just suddenly packs up. You know, the neutrals who got long COVID. They didn't believe chronic fatigue existed and now look what's happened. They've got long COVID, some of them, and they always thought it was a mental weakness and a physical weakness and a laziness.
Like the judgment is too quick. It's not enough. And so trust me, your day is coming where you're going to burn out and you're going to find out there's a whole other side to you that's been neglected and you don't get away with it any more than the rest of us do. I think I've evened it up now.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to recall every point I wanted to go into, um, to start with. Neutrals, because they know the ins and outs of anything they're interested in.
It doesn't necessarily have to be academic. They could be interested in reptiles or astrology or rocks or cars. Um, but there's an ability for some of them to really appear emotionally intelligent because once they know the language, the jargon, like psychologists, I'm thinking are often primary neutral.
They can know all the terms and be very intellectualizing of their feelings. But they don't, they don't go there. They can articulate it well, but like you said, they cut off from the head. It's all cognition.
And it's like it's a problem to solve. So pragmatic is neutral and they, they love and they are geniuses at problem solving. So an emotion is a problem to solve. From a neutral and a mind standpoint, it actually is not. An emotion is a doorway to something far deeper. It's, if we're only going to look at the one ninth above us, we are going to have a lot of problems and nothing's going to really substantially change.
You can tweak things, definitely, cognitively and behaviourally, yes. But the real core of where did this come from? You have to go into the emotions and we are actually souls as well. And we have a soul and neutrals can be fearful of going to soul because they don't want to look gullible. They don't want to look stupid and believing in something airy, fairy and fanciful that doesn't exist.
They don't want to look mentally weak that they need a spiritual crutch to cling onto, which is incredibly arrogant and incredibly condescending and incredibly patronizing and incredibly ignorant. Actually, what I've discovered in working with an enormous number of people with high N's, neutrals, is that underneath there is a soul longing, but the split, there's a war that goes on. I want to stay in control and be mega busy out here, but then this soul, there's a yearning as a void, a missing, I'm looking for something on an inner level in my inner realm. It's the sacred really. Whatever we want to call it. I'm not talking religion, but there's something, there's something else there needs to be.
And they, they want, they are spiritual seekers, but if they've been burned or found a hole in someone who maybe they thought they wrote a great book, I believe in them. And then they found a hole in them or something adverse publicly came out about them. Oh, throw the baby out with the bath water. That's rubbish. God, I look stupid that I even believed them for a while. I'm not doing that. And it doesn't take much and it's like closed door, vault, done. So they're living outside, outside. Goals, goals, goals. Crack the whip. Very perfectionist in the way of thinking and what they require themselves.
Comparing, measuring, do better, do more. And once you've got there in the outer world, then you can rest. Except often that day never comes. They're slave drivers of themselves and others. Being, they're good at doing, being is hard. Now many actually have been attracted to Buddhism and that mindfulness and that sort of spirituality works beautifully in connection with nature and time like that. And so if you're a neutral who knows all about that and does that, go for it. Now you're balancing. Beautiful mind and soul. Fantastic. And I bet your lives are way more peaceful because you have, but it's very easy to get one dimensional in masculine, in feminine, in neutral. It's very easy to get one dimensional.
And that's when we're in child. In other words, operating emotionally under five and we drive ourselves and even neutrals have burnout and they, they shame themselves. Mim, when they have burnout, it's like it's a failure. They have a great fear of being infirm or, um, you know, having mental dementia or whatever in old age, like being out of control like that and vulnerable and needing dependent and any others helps you would know when you're a neutral, because that is a horror for you. And I'll often say, put a pillow over my face. I don't want that. I want to be independent, keep going. I'll do all I can to be fit and healthy. Fit and healthy is important for them. And, because I'm in control then, and I'm sick, not needy, and then, but that's it. So, it's quite a tough one internally, because there's a harsh judge inside of every neutral.
Have you found that?
Yeah. Uh, judgment is the strongest of the dark in neutral, um, I think, uh, and this rigidity, uh, and, and need for rules and understanding things, um, analytically, intellectually, cognitively. Um, and I wanted to. Cause you named a few traits that can be confused with feminine and masculine, um, that I want to differentiate.
So feminine, um, can be like, which also neutral can be is, uh, quiet, calm, um, conflict avoidant, wanting things to be quite, um, Yeah,
balanced and not emotionally heightened. So can you differentiate between those?
Yeah, yeah. So often neutrals have an innate mediator that lives within them, the mediator archetype. Um, and so they're good at conflict resolution. That can be a job role that they have wherever they end up working. And they generally like to work within a big structure because they know exactly where they are and it's what's required of them is clear and there's all the things and you can tick off the boxes. They compartmentalize. Emotions that compartmentalize, professional, personal, that compartmentalize and they like structure. This is how they operate. Some feminines are quiet, yes, but not,
two out of
the four are not.
Hmm.
Oh yeah. True. And that's shy. Shy was the other word I was thinking.
Shy, or two are not shy. So, there's a different feeling. What with the feeling that feminines can have is, I'm not good enough.
I'm not good enough. That fearing of inferiority. While personally shy, they're
professionally competent. And quite arrogant
Neutrals.
Oh yeah. They're professionally
arrogant. This is the split that happens. Personally shy. Don't like people getting to know me too much. You'll reject me. You won't like me. Um, you'll find me a bit aloof.
I won't really know what you're wanting from me with intimacy, with real deep connection, deep, deep and meaningfuls, sharing everything, being really open and raw and emotional. Like I just don't go there. So I don't feel good in that area. That doesn't feel like it's my strength. Doesn't mean they all can't do it, but it's not a natural strength. They may have other persona archetypes that can do it, but it's not natural for the, for the neutrals. They can, they can be very articulate though, it must be said, and they can be good conflict resolution mediators and professionally arrogant. Like they know they're good at their job. They take pride in being good at their job.
They take pride in how hard they work. My God, they're martyrs. They work too hard. At other times though, Neutrals can see the game that's being required of them at work. So they like to look like they're working really hard, but they're just doing what they need to do and getting by, because they don't respect whoever the bosses are.
And it's like, well, I'm not doing that, but I'll look like I'm, I know how to play the game and I'll play it. Flying under the radar, flying under the radar is another thing. Getting the busy work done, getting a lot of stuff done. They like, they can like visionary work where it's planning and advocacy and, humanitarian things like, well, going out there in the community, making a difference to the community, being the nuts and bolts behind all the community organizations.
That's where neutrals are. You know, that's where they tend to work in, in every sphere. Curious minds, no doubt, but personally, yes, shy. So the feminines though, it could be emotional. So they know their feelings and they're, they are more emotional. There's a couple of, um, there's one feminine that doesn't know what they feel.
Like if you ask somebody feeling. Is that a true question? Hot? Tired? Cold? You know, they don't know. Notoriously so. There's another one that does know their feelings. Another couple that know their feelings. And another one that's very heightened, excited, and brightened. But they're emotional. They're emotional.
And there's a nurturing. The thing with the feminine is it's a very nurturing but people pleasing. So, passive aggressive, people pleasing, turning up pleasing, being light, being happy, being fun, um, there is a deeper one, being funny, is also there. There's a couple that can go a little bit deeper, so this is where we're not just saying you're just this so nobody feels pigeon tolled, then we could go into the four. that fit with each category. And then if you're not happy with that, well, I'll go into the nine that fit under each one of those four. So, you know, there's plenty to have a look at there if we want to go deeper. But the neutrals, it's more, it's all about mind. It's about thinking first. If you want to know which way you go, it's like, do you feel first or do you think first? Masculines act. I just know it's instinct. Act. Do this. Decisive. I want to do this. They have high expectations. They have an arrogance that, um, they know the way. It's my way or the highway. And just do what I say. Like, go. Now. Now. And it's impulsive and it's fast. Neutrals are not fast. It must be considered steady, calm, weigh the pros and cons.
Take your time, take your time, take your time. And while they can be visionary men, when they're frightened and overwhelmed, they'll pull the brakes on for themselves and everyone else. No, no, no. We've got to go to the committee first. We've got to do this first. I need to check this out first. I won't be pushed into something.
I'm not sure about what I'm doing. They don't want public failure. And it feels like I'm out of control and I'm just really not sure what's going on here. Now that's a really good skill that masculines could use learning, quite frankly, if they only took a little bit more time. They might, well they would, they'd bypass some really big rollercoaster plunges that they take. Planning is a big thing. Lists and planning and structure and the business plan and where's it, where's the dollars, how does that up here, like it's that sort of, And how you've got to follow the rules. There's a rigidity in the system. Is this, I have found with clients, they're looking for a modality.
They might've been to a few therapists, and it's like which theory is going to work. So I want a theory that will solve our marriage problems. I want a theory that solves my problems. I want a theory that it does. I'll just give me a theory. I don't want to have to feel. I don't want to be lost. You can't fucking find yourselves if you're not lost people.
So good luck with that. And so trying to keep control of the path means you cannot find yourself. You will never find yourself that way. Can I tell you a story very quickly about a classic.
Neutral Feminine in relationship.
Yeah. Go ahead.
Neutral clients of mine. One was a Neutral Masculine, so ambitious. I call them strategic achievers. They're very pragmatic, calm, learn everything. They know the jargon, like you said. And underneath there's a fire with a masculine of ambition. So you put that with that. And they go a long way. They're pretty high achievers within systems. They're not inventors of their own stuff generally. It's like, I still want to work within the system because that's the only way I have security. So an NM is a partner of an FN, so a feminine. And the feminine is feeling like they're growing apart and they're coming for counseling because they're growing apart. and anything that the feminine is saying, the neutral is going, that's not valid. That's not right. How could you come to me at this time? I've got a meeting in four hours and you think this is the time to spring on a conversation about our relationship. That is just not on. And then I saw the feminine afterwards and she said, can you show me how not to annoy her? So, and, and what the right words would be so I can say, and we could have that discussion and I'll burst out laughing because perfect words will not reach her. She doesn't want to look at the relationship. She doesn't want to look at her part in the relationship where the blocks are. And when you cry, she shames you and says, you're doing it wrong. You did it wrong. It's like this person wanted the relationships to have an agenda of the week. You know, when you have a business meeting and you have the agenda. Put it on the agenda for Tuesday at six o'clock and then I'll think about it and then we'll see whether we'll discuss it then. Micro controlling and that's what neutrals could do when they're struggling internally with emotions that they're not connected to and they don't know what's going on. They get, they push themselves harder which is awful to watch to the point of breaking and then they can break. Eventually it takes a long time, but they micro control everyone else and they criticize. So we talked about in the other episodes, how does a neutral
manipulate?
Well, yeah. , we spoke about the masculine and the feminine manipulation style, but how does the neutral manipulate?
Compares, measures, shames. They can be like a hard task master, the hardest teacher you ever had in the army. Really disappointed with that. I thought where we were was here and obviously you're not here. It's the other person's fault. They haven't measured up to their expectations. You didn't do this.
You didn't do this. I am working so hard. Do you know how hard I'm working to provide for us? And I put up with this and I put up with that. There's a real martyr with neutrals. We've said the dark stuff about the masculines and the feminine. So this is all in proportion, but they'll do martyrdom as an excuse to make sure we don't have the emotional discussion to look at how they are emotionally unavailable. Unable to let go and stop not feeling safe enough in themselves to feel and therefore can't connect in an intimate way with their partner and have a one dimensional mindset that, well, how I am is the way you should be. You should work as hard as I am. You should do it the same way as I do. And you're not.
So I'm going to criticize you for that. I'm going to compare you to this and we should have earned more money than this and I am working hard and you don't bring in that money and I think you should apply for another job and earn equal amount of money because it's not fair to me. It's about justice and fairness. I've had clients say this to me. I've nearly lost my mind. I had to be so grown up. Jesus. What's that got to do with love? I asked absolutely nothing. Might it be micro control and shaming so that you don't have to look at where you are not actually perfect. Or emotionally present in this
relationship.
Oh,
when you introduced me to MFN, I'm like, Oh, thank fuck because someone needs to call this out. And I noticed this working with couples a lot where neutral is high and one or both of them. This nitpicking and this.
Getting stuck in
technicalities
and facts, and they want to make sure
that the events almost to the minute are accurate in how they interpret it.
So, no, I didn't say that I use this word. No, that wasn't, I didn't come home at 4 PM. I came home at 5 PM, right? There's this, they get so, and they think that that is almost noble or ethical. To get the facts straight, and they can linger on that for so long as avoidance of going to the emotion,
even if you got it perfect.
They would find a strategy to avoid,
they would just hide in their minds.
They hide in their minds
and they expect perfect language. Like that's not the right meaning of that word. You've used it incorrectly. That's not how I felt, that's not what I think.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Thank you very much. So what do we do
What are they doing at that moment? Neutrals don't know what they're feeling Mim. Underneath, when they go into the debating, argumentative, pedantic place, this is when they are frightened We're starting to get close to the real issue. We're starting to get close to emotions. They are starting to lose control. They don't want to lose control.
So how do they get control back. They fight about nitpicking words that got nothing to do with fucking anything. I know when I have had with neutrals, and I've had a lot of clients of that, but I I've had a lot of people in my life with Neutral. And we might be starting off about something. And undoubtedly back, this is a long time ago, I came in too aggressively in Masculine. With my opinion. Instantly puts the neutral on edge and doesn't believe a word I say that like that's just instant you are written off for life. Too emotional too hot. Whatever. Didn't make what I was saying wrong, the delivery can't be heard by neutral. So this is what you start to learn when you learn this language fluently in my groups and the workshops that I do. Learn how to communicate in a loving way to that person in a way they can hear. Everyone wins that way. You know? You don't wanna be doing it in a way that antagonises. Perhaps that's not the cleverest thing in the history of the world. Yeah.
But we all do it. What I notice Mim, like, I'd be coming in to talk about this, and then they criticize a word or a sentence structure or an emotion. And then they go to here. And then they go to there, and then they go to there. And I wasn't even talking about that. They cleverly, it's instinctive, it's unconscious they take the conversation away from what makes them feel vulnerable and make it a debate about here where they feel in control, where they feel superior. Because neutrals think they're superior. Feminines don't. Professionally and intellectually, mind, in work ethic, in discipline. They feel superior. They feel like this is the way everyone should be on the planet. If we were just like this, everyone would be better off. Now we all do need some light neutral, but we certainly don't need any more fucking dark neutral. That says when you come to the counter and you were five minutes late with your Centrelink form, I'm sorry, mam, you are five minutes late.
You'll have to wait next fortnight and she doesn't have anything to feed her children with because she was five minutes late. Dark neutrals do that sort of rubbish. Light neutrals do not. But that's also their relationship with themselves. It's austerity. It's toughen up. Get on with it, prove your worth. Work to earn your worth, you're only worth what you do. You have no worth as a human being. I don't want to go there, that's nebulous, fanciful, intangible, haven't got time for that. Very busy, very time poor, which is deliberate, it's so they don't feel.
Very connected to body. They can be really into exercise So there's that adrenaline and working and working, and it feels good. They're
so independent. They're so separate from themselves. They can't be connected with another either. Like they don't have that skillset. So if they're really wanting to make their relationship work and learn what love is, cause it ain't what they think it is, is living up to their standards and their values, I don't think so. Just like it's not living up to mine or anyone like it. That's not it. It's not a power struggle. Mine over yours. It's not that. What is the combination of all 3. It's much more complex. Unless they've got a connection and it connects with their feeling and their vulnerability, vulnerability their uneasiness. So when they're doing that nitpicking stuff, they're very uneasy and they're going to go into this and tear you down intellectually because that's the only place they feel competent. It's horrible. You have arguments going round and round and round. You feel like you get nowhere. I've, heard
clients say this and I have felt it. I'm sure you have. I felt like I'm going mad. I came to talk to you about this and you're over here. And it's got nothing to do with it. No, no, no, no, no. You're this, you're that. I'm not doing it. This is their
way of avoiding.
Yeah, with neutrals, if you're feminine or masculine, oh, it is painstaking, because masculines will become hotter.
Like, what the fuck, I can't reach you, where are you? You're just so bland, you're just so numb, you're just so cut off. Fucking come out of your shell. And then
Feel
something
and feminines will become teary and anxious and feel abandoned.
And the, the neutral partner is physically there, but they feel so, so alone.
And it brings out the worst in feminine and masculine, this neutral, it's like. Looking at a, a wall and not knowing how to engage with them
And they feel like they're right and justified and correct and this is the right way to be and also they're too busy
and stop interrupting
me.
And they can justify
themselves with, with really articulate reasons that
masculine
and feminine can, can appear like the foolish or the crazy or the
hysterical one. And the neutral goes, well, I'm calm. So I'm, I'm superior. because I've got
So
I
have my shit together.
Yeah. it's.
Therefore, therefore my
point of view is right.
Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to, to, to reason with.
Um, what I wanted to summarize is we were differentiating between neutral and feminine and you said this key phrase feminine has this feeling of not being good enough. Neutrals can have this sense of I'm not ready, or I'm not qualified enough, or I haven't yet
come up with the right answer. Hear how they're different.
Oh yeah.
And I need to study more. I need to work
for. I need to do another course more. I need to Then I can speak. So they can be silent, but
for different reasons.
Yeah.
And then the masculine I wanted to differentiate because people can think the masculine's the provider, the responsible one, the controlling one, but, and perhaps that's the key word control. Why?
Uh, uh, are masculine's
even controlling?
Oh yeah,
yeah
My way or the highway, we just do it in a different style and neutral does it as a sergeant major. Like you have to go through this. They might be the parents who say you're grounded. You broke this rule. You had this many chores. You're supposed to have done this. I expected that, so you don't get that. Black and white . Were you parented like that, Mim?
Somewhat. I'm primary masculine, but my parents raised me where they wanted me to be primary neutral.
And so this, this, can happen where, you know, in my context as a young woman growing up, I might think, Oh, well, I have wounding around the masculine.
Um, and of course in the mainstream concept of it might be oh, men,
but my wounding is actually more so around neutral. What neutral has done to me.
Yeah.
Squash
me, tell me I need to go study more. I can't speak from my opinions, my feelings. I have to be rational. I have to be calm. And I've always felt so inadequate in the presence of neutral because I never do it good enough.
Um, so that's something we don't talk about enough. It's not just masculine. That's fucked us up.
Neutral when.
Oh my
god. God Neutral has fucked us up totally. And in the age of enlightenment, 250 years ago, you know, being very religious starting with um,
neutrals. It'd have been nuns and monks. They were the scholars. They were the ones who were learning. They were the ones
developed their minds. minds go into academia in the age of
enlightenment many went to
atheism it's like a severing happened between mind and soul. And when you have a severing between mind and soul, it is
dangerous. It is dangerous. Awful things In the way we treat ourselves, the way we treat others, when we're frightened of emotions and we're disconnected lot of cognitive dissonance out there.
Mim, we're indoctrinated to
be this, from our families and at school, especially when
I was growing up, I mean, I'm old enough to be your
mum. In my day, you were
not emotional. You were not supported. You needed to pull yourself
together. Get on. You've got an assignment due. There are no ifs or buts.
I expect it done. Follow the rules. you'll get a job. If you work harder, you'll get a better pay.
There was just this mainstream, everyone going to be good little factory workers workers And live that way. If you are born with neutral, you achieve quite well in that system. Like it feels natural. You don't want to stick your neck out. You're not trying to draw attention to yourself. God knows, you know, under the radar work, good hard
worker.
But then if you're not a primary neutral And you're a feminine or a masculine, then that system doesn't work for you It didn't for you and it didn't work for me And so have
found it a primary masculine utterly enraging how I
was told how I had to be. You know,
I'm 62 . so Oh my God, it just, it just felt so wrong. There was no place, it's too much, it's too
loud, it's too, emotional, it's too, it's too.
Yep.
I thought on my my
tombstone, it could be, she was to dot, dot,
dot.
Like,
any any word you like chuck it in there. But it wasn't actually, there's a place for masculine. There's a place for feminine. There's a
place for neutral. But when they're on
their own,
that's when they get out of control. When they get to be dark influences in our lives. Dark in the way we relate, dark in the way we make decisions . We all need to be able to marry the three to
unite the three together, which is what I teach how to do that. What does that look like. Then we're talking good communication, connection, and compassion. Well, there's a word, compassion. That's what we can get when we encourage. When we pull them all together, which is
stunning to see people find genuine inner peace. peace something
about understanding a moment ago neutrals need to understand. They love to understand. They want to learn. They want to understand. That's great. There's nothing wrong with that. They've got inquiring curious minds. Nothing wrong with that. Fantastic. Keep learning. We get educated
We have more tolerance. We do. We have more patience. We have more understanding. But understanding alone will never make you reach a place of
self love Understanding doesn't heal you.
Understanding doesn't connect you with your soul. Understanding doesn't take you back to your purpose, to the meaning of your life.
Only you, only you went through
your experiences. Only I went
through mine.
And there was meaning behind
all of it. And we're needing to go
into messy bits don't want mess. They want perfection.
They want mindfulness. They want calm. They may meditate, but they're still going to be
quite likely to be avoiding messy, difficult, uncomfortable emotions. So they don't even let
themselves feel
the true intensity that's there. Which is actually really sad because, in the mess, underneath me there's pain and that intense emotion is, is a part that's been fractured in us, it's been rejected, judged.
And is in pain, and it's going to act up in our life, like it's just a matter of when and how big. And we can feed that pain and make it get bigger,
or we can go
there. Which is what I call my work. Now, a lot of my work 'Going There'.
We can go there
and meet that part of ourselves and their pain and actually learn
how to love that part and bring them back home,
the journey home to soul. We can start to become more complete and whole. Now, neutrals actually want wholeness. They do.
But they're frightened of going into the
intangibles. But if they can come marry mind to heart. Very, they're often very kind hearted people. But if they can marry mind to heart and really
feel and get to know who they are emotionally stunning people to have
in anything that you're doing. Great problem solvers. Visionaries, problem solvers, great analysts, but we can't live from the mind alone because we get it wrong.
Well And that reminds me, the thing I wanted to highlight in the nuances of who is neutral, because
as you can hear, they can be really intelligent and in professions like
law, science,
politics, reform,
corporate, government, um, anything with rules and spreadsheets and systems and organization. But they can also be in things like FIFO or the mining industry, or they could be mechanics or in trades.
It's It's practical. We're talking something that adds up. You put this here, you put that
there, there's a system here, it makes this, the engine works that way. So it could be that you're working with your mind or you could be working with your hands. But it's practical, it's problem solving, they like to fix and to, to make, they like to, fix problems, but the style of problems, they like to fix, will depend on their actual archetypes. Their personas they have underneath. That will direct it, but it's still logical, and it needs a system, and they want clarity. You ask a neutral, oh could you do this for me and you don't explain the parameters.
They can freak out It's like, I need to know exactly what you want, because you know, I could displease you, I could fail, I could get it wrong it's like, I want, I want, that, and masculines have a way of doing this. It's like, just do that. Oh yeah, okay, no worries structure is very important for safety, for inner safety and control. Again you've got a couple of, um, feminine personas and a couple of masculine personas who just find that a jail. And they like to be the opposite. They like to wing it. Give them a challenge. Great. Let's go. I don't even need to think about it.
I'm not reading that. How people say to me read that. Did you check that? Did you watch that Now I'm on to the next thing You should, before you buy that. Money is not what is motivating me. Needs to be thoroughly researched
first. Make sure you know what you're doing. Which company should you be getting internet from How much are you paying for your gas? It's about control. It's I've got my hand on everything in
my life. So hopefully, and if I'm perfect and I do it all bad things don't happen to me. Bad
bad things will still happen because
soul is going I can't, I can't reach
you.
I, this is not the life we came to live. This is
not how we want to be in the relationship
This is not love
This is not happiness. This is not contentment. This is not peace. You say you want these things but the way you're living is
actually in the wrong direction.
Hmm. So let's, let's talk about how NF's and NM's would differ.
Okay
an N M is a strategic achiever . These good at school, motivated. They like getting assignments. I need this
done
by then that done by then organized get it done quite interesting and they can make themselves do the hard assignments that no one else really wants to do, but they'll finish it. They'll tick it off. They,
they need to tick off the list and they do it difference with them is that, um, not only are they practical and calm and they won't show a lot
but they've got this quiet drive underneath this fire, so
their
masculine is coming in as like this little jet engine underneath this calm person. And they've got a career trajectory. And then find out, Mim, they've done very well done financially very well. They've achieved very well. They're quite high up! high up And they just keep going, visionary, they're strategic they're, um, they understand systems. they make
sure they know
exactly what's required and they meet it.
And if they're
engaged and they're excited by it,
so the heart's engaged. then they just keep going. So they work really really hard be very unavailable.
Can be very distant distant in relationships Expect everyone to want to work
as hard and achieve and tick
goals as they do. Um, they have ambition. So
I know of some people who are NM and they had a meeting and an NF came in and they were all talking
you know, what the prospects were for all of them in this big government bureaucracy. And we could go here and this door might be opening up and if I got this qualification, I added this I could get here and then that door would open up to me and then I'd be able to do this. And it's just natural to them. It's like, why wouldn't you?
And they're comfortable doing it. So that's what they want to do, but staying in the system. So, and then the NF is sitting there going, oh my God, the drive's not there. The ambition's not there Mim. I want to get home to my family looking forward to doing
this on the weekend. Like relationships are what matter. I don't want to be killing myself
for my career. I, that's not what I'm about. I like my job. I want to do my job well. And I like working with people and I like making a difference to help people using the skills I've got as a neutral. Love that. Absolutely. And the more it looks like it helps people, the happier I am. Actually great organizer, great manager. If you want something done, ask a neutral definitely.
But no, I'm not sacrificing my life to climb the greasy pole. I am
not interested.
So a neutral feminine, which I call the analytical humanitarian they will come towards you first, thinking, rational,
clear then if they know you
well and they're feeling they like you. You'll start to see a more friendly,
warm um tone.
And you, may see, they could get distressed. Like they may be arguing here or trying to get something here. And then there could be tears that come second. Well, you don't get that with an NM They're not having
that conversation. They're just driven
they can think that,
um emotions are just a waste of time and they will argue about the even need to do that. Like, come on, you've only got one life, make the most of it. Does that make a difference? So analytical humanitarian. So this
love of people is very innate in the feminine can be in the N as well. Often we'll work wanting to
help people all over the world in various ways. It's this type of jobs they'd like to do. So yes, strategic achiever. I reckon you can pick strategic
achievers.
Yeah. So should we know, let, I'll give you some examples. NM's from Harry Potter, we had Hermione McGonnagal, and Snape.
All NM's.
From Friends Monica,
we have Greta Thunberg, Grace Tame Esther Perel, Africa, Brooke Jacinda Ardern, and Julia Gillard.
I reckon that's a
pretty
good list.
You can feel that energy. Oh my God, are they competent! Are they eloquent, can they
argue
their arguments together well? Will they research and do the work that's needed to have their points ready to go? You better
believe
it.
I
just realized they're all women.
for Snape.
Yeah!
It's
Isn't that interesting? There's like no feminine. Feminine is their least, and they're all women, which is proving our point, I guess,
that it doesn't matter about
gender.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's got nothing to do with gender.
No. No.
No,
Then NFs, we had
Enya,
Gandhi, Keanu Reeves. Rosa Parks, Emily Dickinson,
Alan Turing, and from Schitt's Creek, Patrick and Stevie.
And then from Heartstopper,
which we mentioned in the feminine episode, Nick is NF as well.
And what, so you just get this calmness first and this rational, and they're going to work, want to solve things with their mind. They're not going to be overly emotional out in public. You're not going to see that
with an N first, whereas an
FN you'll see the emotion first and then you'll get the end coming in secondary.
This is like the
order of how we relate,
And how, like, one of the other things I wanted to distinguish between is,
um,
let's say,
someone is the caretaker in their relationship, maybe they're the primary parent or they've been defaulted the position of,
um, like looking after the house, the domestics, they can be both feminine and neutral, right?
Like, but they would do so differently. Um, can you tell me how you would distinguish them?
So a neutral would feel like always you've got to bring in enough money to make sure we're secure. So they might like to do some chores around the house because they like being busy that's, that the feminine is going to naturally take on the housewife.
And I don't care whether it's men or women.
Whatever gender you are. Just
naturally move to the cooking and I'll do the cleaning up
and I don't mind doing this and it's like is to do with their archetypes extraordinarily strongly just, I've done it for lifetimes and I'll do it again. Um I don't cook, Mim
Nor do I.
This marriage is my second marriage. Well, masculines are too busy.
I know!
I don't want to waste my time?
Whereas both my husbands, I'm on my second one now. one Um, they did all the cooking. I'm not interested. But I also, who watch cooking shows, I love Masterchef. And because it's the competition and I love how they improve and I love the design and
I love all that And, um I get how food is wonderful and how nurturing and loving it is and
made with love what it does for people. And I actually feel like I'm missing out there, but that's very much The neutrals can love to cook as well. We're not going to Like split hairs. It depends on the archetypes
underneath.
Yeah, absolutely.
And,
um, cause we've got
maybe five or so minutes. Um,
this would probably tie things together
talking about what neutrals
deepest fears are and how they play a part in setting that up for themselves on repeat throughout their lives.
Yeah Yeah. financial loss. Financial insecurity like genuine hardship . Can't pay the bills can't, live, can't pay the mortgage. Loss of regular employment are terrifying for neutrals. And this has to do with the archetypes that they have and the history of what those people who had those archetypes in history have, have lost their homes and so they sort of carry it in their DNA
I've gone into the history of all the archetypes and what the hardships were because that's their fears now. Public humiliation as is a huge public failiure. This requirement to be perfect. They are notorious for overloading themselves with responsibilities. So they've got a lot on their plate. When they're vulnerable and they're struggling there's an inner inner compulsion to prove that they could do more and then they'll add five more things
on top of their
plate when they're already at struggling point. And then they'll get angry, then they'll get blamey and then they get bossy! Like a sergeant in an army of what's required and punishments if you don't. So they overload themselves so much and, and that makes them so busy emotionally unavailable
with themselves. Emotionally unavailable with their families. And then what can happen is their
marriages break up.
They don't actually spend as much time with their kids as they wanted to. Were too busy trying to make sure they had a secure job and home for their family.
This, I mean, this, has happened so so much then
the partner feels like they weren't there. The children don't know them. And then they end up having to split their assets. So they killed themselves working and then they lost half of it anyway and didn't have a family at the end, which was like the long term reward. Long term gratification is a thing for neutrals. But they can sacrifice the wrong things. What they think they get at the end. You know, I've got this I've little savings, I've got my super
here, I've got my investment property, if anything goes wrong, because the fear of loss is so strong.
Money fears are so strong and the money worries and they use it as an excuse not to be close and available, but they actually have lost connection with themselves, cognitive
dissonance they can't their partners ask them to connect and relate, they're offended. How can you ask me that?
I do so much. They go into martyrdom and they shut down further. It can make relationships really lonely and eventually people leave because they were never there or they weren't there for long
periods of time. They might have been to but then say
or redundancy or a
pay cut extra children we can't afford to live.
Those sorts of stresses, you'll see a neutral just starts to shut down.
and
yeah, it's such a,
when I introduce neutral to clients, there's such
often
this weight off their shoulders of. Oh my gosh, someone has named to me what's been going on. Why I feel like
I am becoming crazy, but they seem so together and calm and, and, and it just names it
And then with this
language, with this accuracy, which are neutral words,
we can then do something with it, because if we don't
we don't call this out, then it can continue to fly under the radar and then the masculine gets vilified and the feminine is, oh, you're being teary, grow up.
But then the neutral gets away with this.
So
as we
wrap
up.
Yeah. It's been socially acceptable!
Yeah
is there
anything you want to end with, either on that note or anything we're missing?
I would
I would love to set neutrals free from their extraordinary weight of
responsibilities that they
take on themselves, that crush them the way they crush themselves, their heart, their joy, their love, their time,
their intimacy deserve And when they realize what they're doing, because it is unconscious Mim, because they don't stop long enough to
ever know. And it's like this path has paid dividends. Society ticks me for doing this. And you're saying stop doing it? No you can keep doing. Self awareness. Know thyself is very, very, very important. And
this is on an inner level Your day
of calling will come. The brick wall will come.
It's much smarter to foresee it I think maybe I could learn how to live and
be in a different relationship with myself so I'm
able to have a relationship with
my partner.
Able to have a partnership with my children.
That does seem smart to me
in the long term
Hmm, thanks Katie, and where we go from here is
looking into compatibility and triggers and how we can have
quality relationships, whatever our MFN types are. That's going to be in
absolutely episodes ahead, so that's where we go even deeper.
Yeah, can't wait. Thank you, Mim.
It's been
a joy.
