MFN: Masculine NEW
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Welcome to, we don't have a clue about love. I'm Mim Kempson here with Katie Eden Todd, and today we're talking about the masculine. So let's go straight into it and paint the scene. Katie, who are the masculines in society?
Okay, well they're any gender, Mim. We're not talking about men here, and you and I are prime examples. We are dominant masculines in the way we are. So what does that mean? Well, a masculine is someone who likes to take over. Decisive, like now, now, now. In fact, why wasn't it done yesterday? We are impatient.
We are hot. We are passionate. We can be very generous, but we like it my way or the highway. Like, of course we should be leading. What do you mean? No, that's, and when we see other people, you'll see the impatience with the masculine when they can't decide things. Back and forth, back and forth. And would they like that?
Are they sure they want that or whatever, or we should really research a bit further or look into a bit further. We're like, just make a fucking decision, like do this and then let's go. It's very action. It's very, um, there's a, a big confidence in masculines that they know what they're on about, and they're right.
There's an arrogance with masculines that's really hard for others to contend with, and they're happy to go to war, they're happy to arc up, and if you want a power struggle about who's going to decide, who's going to rule, who'll lead, oh I'm your person, I'll fight you, you'll be exhausted, so don't even bother.
So a lot of people don't bother. The feminines and the neutrals won't bother, certainly not that way. So they can be hot headed. They can be impulsive. They like to be alive and they see things in a big way, like they're not interested in little, we'll just do this. They're not interested in settling or just having an ordinary life.
There's a big energy in masculines. They often don't know what to do about it. They can be fabulous. Like when we talk about this work, it's archetypal. So there are light sides. And there are shadow sides. And if you have got masculine strongly, then you have both because everyone's got both sides of the coin.
You can't say I've mastered my masculine and I'm light now. Like fuck off how deluded though. You know what? A lot of masculines will say I've done a lot of work, you know, I've come so far. Oh yeah. I can own all of that. I was like that I was impatient and bullying, intimidating. I didn't care what other people felt.
It's like I was right. And that's, I'd never apologize, but I'm not like that now. You know, I've come such a long way. Until tomorrow when they do exactly the same thing again. Like I have seen this with clients so often they'll always tell you how well they've done. So there's different styles, there are different archetypes in the masculine, but basically it's big, passionate, decisive, action oriented, believes it's superior in when it's in the shadow side and wants to take over and gets very impatient quickly.
People, your listeners or your viewers are going to go, oh yeah I know someone like that and it might be your children. It might be that boss at work. It could be this colleague. It doesn't take much, but they and crises. It's like, pick me. There's a crisis, right? I'll come in and step in and I'll take over and it's all right.
I've got this slight, this moment of being the hero. I'd love the glory moment. Thanks. Like love it. Yeah, I'll be, I'm there. Love it. Whereas others will be not wanting that responsibility Mim. The masculine will seek it. They seek to be seen and to have that moment. There's some masculines who are rebels, hotheaded rebels and prickly and grumpy and, but they still rule with an iron fist.
They might be rebellious ones, or there's others who are trying to climb the greasy pole, but there's still the same energy. Does that make sense?
And I love how you opened up reminding us that it's not to do with gender. And I think it's important to name how, and, you know, as a queer person myself, I hear the terms masc and femme being
used to describe people's appearances, whereas MFN, um, as I believe it doesn't have anything to do with
appearance, what we are energetically doesn't necessarily reflect how we dress or how we present ourselves. Um, yeah, anything to add to that?
Oh, that's these are energies and they're innate. We're born with them. We start showing them from a very young age, both the light and the shadow. We trip ourselves up the same ways. We can talk about that today with the masculine, how they trip themselves up. And, but it just seems the natural path. And we're surprised that other people don't think like us and do the same as us.
Why aren't you on the same page as us? That's where we all go, whether we're a masculine first or feminine first or neutral first, they're all brilliant, Mim. They're all stunning. There's no hierarchy here. They will all trip themselves up. So I call going into child, which is like being under five emotionally.
And when we're triggered, we're unwell. Life's a stretch. We've hadn't had any sleep or life's just tough, you know, and we all have those times. We can double down into the worst or into the child version of, of ourselves and then we tend to cut off the other bits of F& M, whatever we've got. We cut them off and we chuck them out and we just go full bore masculine.
This is, this is diabolical. Like, and going full blown feminine or neutral when we get to those in the future sessions. This is when we're at our most self destructive. It's just awful, but we feel like this compulsion inside to do so. It's really hard to push pause and not go there. You could relate to that, can't you?
You know what I'm talking about. And it feels justified at the time, but later, those moments, If we have the capacity to feel shame, that's, that's where we go. Oh my God, I wish I hadn't done that. But it's like this fire, it's fiery, the masculine. And once it's gone so far, you can't stop it. And that's really difficult for people with the masculine to manage.
You see little kids having difficulty regulating big emotions and anger. and passion and can be grandiose, you know, and often there's no one there to hold that for them. They don't know. We talked about this last week. Parents don't know how to hold that and what they need to teach that child with that, because when it spills out over everyone, it does a lot of damage.
It's a big energy, the masculine, whatever gender it may come in.
You mentioned shame and that word stands out because I think there can be this dominant idea that shame is something we're supposed to get rid of, but in my experience as a primary masculine, I've learned that actually going into the shame, just seeing that it's there, not being shameless or being shame free, but hitting this, oh, I don't know, this gravity of, you know, how my dark masculine has come
out and, and feeling some remorse.
around
It's remorse.
Is so key.
You know, the most dangerous people in the world are the ones who are shameless,
Mm hmm,
Who do awful things. That wasn't me. I didn't do that. There's nothing wrong with what I did. Like, they're so disconnected. They're a long, long, long way away from soul, from themselves. They do the most damage on the planet.
Now, we all have moments where we have been trying to justify, and it's not my fault. Masculines argue this all the time. It's not me. It's not me. Because they fear they're going to be dethroned and they're going to lose their position of power. It's like they go into power struggles innately all the time.
But that's what makes people hate them. Because they go into these power struggles. But you just said something that is the key lesson here. To go into our shame, into the pain, to really feel remorse for how I hurt others, the impact I had on others. We have to feel that, Mim. If we don't, we're going to do it again.
Mm hmm.
Like, if you're going to pretend you didn't hurt people, but none of us really sit down and go, I think I'd like to have revenge and go and hurt people like that. No, no, no, no. We're struggling. People, when we're in our shadow, we are struggling, and we're not meeting what we need, but we don't know, because we're very unconscious.
We're very clueless, basically, because we're never taught how to be connected. And so those moments where we have the fires come out, it's felt justified and maybe we've even enjoyed it. I mean, let's be honest, we've argued and we've screamed and we've told people some fucking truths they needed to hear.
And in the moment, we might feel a bit of release of whatever it was that was going on. But afterwards, there's enormous pain, shame, self hatred, all that gets turned inwards that we've set up being so disliked, being so exiled, like. People looking at us really wary never not able to trust us again, not letting us in, but the masculine is never going to show that, but they do go to pain internally, but they're not going to show people that it hurts them.
We're going to look like doesn't fit me. Take it or leave it. I couldn't care less, which is a lie. It's a pretense. It's a mask.
Mm, and I don't know about you, but those, um, that pain we've caused others by being dark masculine, I wear that on my heart every day, and I feel like if ever I were to lose that, I could fall in into the dark again. Um, and when I tell people that sometimes they're shocked like, doesn't that so mean to yourself?
Or that, that sounds really heavy. And I'm like, well, I don't get bogged down in it, but I remember.
Yeah.
Is, is that
Oh, yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if we've got a hold on our heart, we've got to really own how powerful this is. This energy. and how destructive it is, and ultimately how it destroys what we want, because the masculine's got a big heart. It's a lion heart. It's got a huge heart, except you don't see it when it's gone into insecurity.
It'll go overly superior, Mim, when it's actually feeling inadequate and inferior. So that's a clue if we can hear ourselves thinking or speaking that way. I'm struggling. They'll go into proving themselves, go into power struggles, go into I'll show them. And all it does is sets up the next fall. So being aware of this and mindful and how painful it is to take responsibility for how we've misused it, that does keep us safe.
I feel like that's, and humility is a huge lesson for masculines like, yes, it's a great gift. It's, it's noble. It's charismatic. It's inspiring. It can have, when it has humility and modesty and it's really responsible and it takes. The responsibility of being a leader very seriously, and it's very aware and has to be really wise.
And the way we learn is through lots of humiliations and lots of falls. That's how the masculine learns, but of course many haven't learned it. So there's the misuse of power again and again and again. You know, we're all very frightened of that. That's why some feminines and some neutrals don't want to have a bar of their inner masculine.
Because I never want to be the one who was the abusive one with power. So I'd rather be powerless than be in touch with that because what if I get it wrong? Well, if you're born with the masculine one or two, but particularly number one out of the three, you do make lots of mistakes and it's a very, oh, it's a powerful humiliation, humility lesson.
Can you relate to that darling?
Hugely, like it's, I describe it as a cringe, like cringeworthy, like, Oh, I did that.
And foot and mouth, the things that we will say when we're on fire and it means we're, we're not connected to heart in that moment.
No, not connected to ourselves, let alone the other.
And we're blaming. So we're blaming and we're projecting and, you know, we can be upset about loyalty and we don't own that we can actually be disloyal. We don't own that we can exploit others talents and abilities. It's very opportunistic, the masculine. Doesn't miss a trick. We have to own that. Now, that can be a very good skill and we can bring people into a team and that could be wonderful and it can be honored and paid for, etc.
Or we can exploit and see if we can get a bit for ourselves so that we can get to the top because we've this need to prove themselves and be on top. It's their great Achilles heel.
And so let's name some people who are masculines that hopefully listeners have, have heard of before. Um, because we've got two different types of masculine in MFN. Um, Known as avatars. We've got MN and MF.
So think about an MN. So they've got masculine neutral. This is who they are. They, they are the outright authorities. Like straight away, it's like, yeah,.
You don't pick a fight with them, but they are very powerful, very ambitious. And then they've got the neutral ability for business plans, for process, very disciplined. They don't let emotions get in the way of what needs to happen. It's just business. They're born leaders, born CEOs in their field. Born and in making money and being successful.
They're really good at it because they've got the inspiration, the leadership, the charisma, and the vision from their masculine. And then they've got vision in neutral as well, but all the other underpinning things that you need to be a success. So it's double whammy, but they can be work, work, work, driven the ambition.
And there's a, so there's a passion there, but the cold, the cool neutral, you know, you can feel the mind. It's hard to reach them emotionally. It's hard to like their quest is, is the love of their life. I mean like that, it's just single focus and it's their whole life.
Now an MF is an exuberant leader. So this one has the vision, the charisma and very excited and passionate about what their quest is.
And then they've got the feminine, which is a lot of emotion as well. And their emotions trip them up all the time. So they get overly excited. The neutral stuff, you know, the business plans you're supposed to do, you know, all of that. I should do dot, dot, dot. And this is the rules and this is how you do it.
And then the impulsivity that comes and let's just leap there 10 steps ahead. I know it'll be all right. That's what an MF will do. An MN would never do that. And they just look at MFs and go, what the fuck are you doing? Don't you understand what you're getting at wrong? This one is, we'll have a tendency, well not a tendency, this one wants to break the rules.
Wants to show it can be done not following the rules and wants to include people and have everyone love them and like what they're doing and excite people and come on join me in this, be excited about it and they'll over promise us as we do. I want to give you this and this and this and we do doesn't mean we're going to deliver though so don't hold your breath people and certainly not as quickly as we promised.
You know, you might say we'll be there in two months, 20 years, you're still going, hadn't turned up yet. So this one is exuberant. Um, it can be overly trusting and naive of people as well. So go down the wrong paths, whereas a neutral is going, no, no, no, there's nothing, this is not personal, but I don't trust that.
And I'm suspicious of that. And I'd like some more facts and figures about this before we go anywhere near there. Do you see what I mean? It's more calculated, which makes them very successful. Um, If you've seen the Succession, I mean the fantastic series, did you see? Oh my god, men, watch it. Brilliant.
Succession. The, the, the father who's the head guy is based on the Murdoch's. MN. If you want to know
what an MN, the head of the Sopranos, like, if you want to have a look, hello, there they are. Um, and the MFs, I would say, you know, they're more outrageous, they'll swear more, they break the rules. Um, they try to take shortcuts, they're exuberant, they can be more likable, but then they can have bigger financial failures.
It's more of a roller coaster that will happen with them, exuberant leader.
Does that make sense? Whereas the outright authority, it's like, you know who the boss is, but you're going to be led to a very big organization. Like, well, they're going to have that capacity to build an organization around their leadership, their ideas.
And you trust them because they're just so talented. They, they are so strategic, they've got it all, but not, they'll treat their relationships like they treat their work. So they can want to run their relationship life the same way. And there's not much room for the personal, for the intimate, for having their guard down.
It's all about that
Mm.
Does that give you an idea?
Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's name who some may be. Who would be MN's. Kim Kardashian
Elon Musk,
Joe Rogan, Tom Cruise,
Ricky Gervais, Bill Burr, another comedian, um,
Teal Swan,
Yes.
Ru Paul, Victoria Beckham, Beyonce, Hillary Clinton, Madonna.
And for those of you who watch Ted Lasso
Roy.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Good old
Roy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. There are different types there. So, these people have succeeded to extraordinary degrees. Have they not? Can you, when you think of them, you can feel a steely determination and resilience and single mindedness in where they're going and they work hard.
They're really driven work ethic, physically work hard on themselves, mentally work hard on themselves and success. Success, growth, keep growing, keep growing, keep being innovative, love of leading. Now they'll want to inspire people as well and they have a quest to make a difference to the world and that we'll believe.
I mean, you can look at a lot of political leaders will have this as well, Mim, obviously, Putin would definitely have this one just as an example, but they stand out from a young age as driven. And people might've said, you know, like that some had dyslexia somehow, whatever you'll never amount to anything.
That's just fuel to the fire. I'm going, you watch, you watch. And there can be a real friendliness in, in, in them as well, obviously, but this drive and this steeliness, and you will get a cool air. And if you displease them, you will get, um, exile and coldness, like, it's like anger and then cold exile.
See, and this will be in relationships as well.
Make
sense?
Yeah. Oof. Okay. So then to contrast, because when you bring in feminine instead of neutral,
it's, it strikes me that there are more, there's more vulnerability. So
on our list, we've got Shane Warne, Robbie Williams, Elton John, um, from Ted Lasso again, Jamie, from Harry Potter, Weasley twins,
uh, we've got Oprah Winfrey, Serena Williams,
and Miriam Margoyles.
I'm not sure, I reckon, I can't tell with Serena whether she's an MN. I think she's got the steeliness.
What do you reckon?
I don't know her enough.
She
does explode. I've followed her all
her life since she was 11. So, um, but
there's a steeliness there and she does
explode, but there's a steeliness there. I might, might revert
and say MN for her actually.
So it doesn't mean they
don't have hot tantrums. But then there's a coldness and then
a in they go. But the others there, when you think of, you know, Elton John, Robbie Williams, Shane Warne, you can see that they're exuberance and all or nothing and addictive personalities got them into trouble. So they had talent and charisma and were loved, but they have these big, painful falls.
There's too much control in an MN to fall to where an MF goes to. And also they're very naive with people and they'll, the F part of them can be passive. I don't have to do that neutral work. Like, do I have to, and that's what we'll set up the fall that they won't follow through on dotting the I's and crossing the T's, um, and they could take people and they shouldn't, and just want people to love them.
And they love me. So they have a pretty, they have a big life. And they'll swear, they'll be outrageous. I don't know if you know Miriam Margoyles. And there's some special she's done on on TV. But she swears like a trooper. She's um, she's, she's just fantastic. And you sort of go, oh my god. MFs will love that.
They like to break the rules and shock and be outrageous. And they want to be colourful and creative. Creative, creative, creative. And connect and, and, but still got a quest. Still got a quest, but they will have fallen many times for the reasons that I've just said. So you can feel outrageous Um, and very, and there's an openness about the
flaws, I think, as well, like
it's more personally open, whereas the , MN's might look like they're
being
open,
don't believe it.
It's all controlled. It's
all, it's strategic
because they've got Neutral.
Mm
and not, I'm not
saying one is better than another.
They have genius skills.
If we all bring in what we're missing, if the MN's bring in the true feminine, Oh my God, they're the greatest leaders of business leaders on the planet.
And they're changing the world for the best for everyone, not for their ego, for everyone. If you bring in neutral for an MF, then their dream of what they came to contribute, which I call our love letters from our soul. Everyone's got a purpose and it's our letter of love of what we came to serve, what we came to give.
That is the purpose. Everyone has a form of love that they want to give to the planet. It's just hard to find what it is, but an MF has always had a quest. And I want to, I want to offer something. I want, I've got, I've got so much want to get so passionate and we fall and we fall and we fall and Ms rise up again.
We rise up again. It might be out for a few years at a time. I have been. Fuck it. I'm not playing. I'm not doing it, but then I can't help myself. The fire pilot light gets lit. Maybe I'll do it this way. And then up we come again. That's very current. That is, that is M but if an MF brings in enough N, so we've got the harmony of M F N in these, my God, they are then able to do and be and contribute what they came to contribute.
So everyone's got to bring in what's the least comfortable for them. Does that relate to you.
Mim? Do you, do you.
Resonate with that at all.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think being MF, um, another thing that can happen is there's a, like, not, maybe not fragility, but a sensitivity where we can get sick really easily, or chronic fatigue or burnt out,
where an MN would just push and push and push.
Yep.
Now it depends on the archetypes that you have of the F. So not everyone's going to get that, but there is a sensitivity. We will come across as very sensitive people, like we can be hurt easily, which will shock people. But those who know us see it, which you don't see that with an MN. They're not, they're not letting you know.
But the MF, the F part will show it. It's also that naivety and gullibility though. That, like we've definitely got that. But yes, many of us, and you and I have that. The chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia like the the crashing can happen. Whereas as you say in MN, that would feel shameful. You've just got to be physically fit and you've got to push through it.
And they're, they're really strong about physical, physical strength is very
important.
And
the, the other one. Yeah. Discipline. Yeah. From the neutral. Um, I forgot to name on the list of MFs, Eric from Sex Education.
I
haven't seen sex education!
Like,
Oh my gosh. You have, so those of you listening who have Eric is just, there's this, um, like wants to be in the limelight, but at the same time, Is somewhat, not self sacrificing, but his best friend Otis, who's probably NF, um, he gives a lot and he puts up with Otis's shit a lot. Um, so I think Eric has the exuberance, but
the sensitivity as well.
It's a
push pull. It can be a push pull,
depending on
the archetypes that make up your particular M,
but
there's the quest of, I really do want to get out there and make the difference, but then a part of you can be, I don't want to go. Yes, you do.
you do, you do. Like, you know,
do you relate to that, the push pull effect?
It takes courage. The masculine is courageous. So look at us. Look at us, we're on the screen,
we're doing podcasts, like we're putting ourselves out there.
It might surprise people to know that that takes quite a lot,
but the M in us is the bit
that makes it happen.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think, um, for those listening who might be primary feminines or primary neutrals who might think they're masculine, either first or second, what may be some things to, and I can note down what I've got, like for example, um, a neutral may think they're masculine because of their ambition.
So there could be a difference
in, in the
type of ambition.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So can I just go to that one? Neutrals like to work within an organization where there's clear lines of structure, clear lines of roles, what you're supposed to do. And so they can be ambitious working within a system, maybe not all of them are, but say they want to work up to this.
But masculines go, I don't want to work in a fucking structure where there's people telling me what to do. My role is this and my role is that. And you have to, I've never filled out an application form for applying for a government job. Like kill me now. no, no, no. no. I'll do it myself. I'll be in my own business.
I'll go and do it myself. I'll do it myself. I'm going to do this and I want to do that. I don't want to answer to anyone. I want to do it. I want to be responsible and lead it myself. Now ends can like to be managers and direct. And, and have their orbit like, but my line manager is in charge of that. Not me.
So my orbit is this, they like to have great clarity and this, and they want security and they want to know that I, you know, I put in those many hours. I get that much pay and I get that much superannuation. I get that much paid leave and I can go to here if I want to, but that structure is provided for me.
That is safety for neutrals and it's ingrained and I have to honor it. There's nothing wrong with that. But if I'm talking about differentiating with masculines, that feels like jail to
us.
Almost feels unsafe. Structure feels unsafe. It
is weird.
Awful.
Like it strangles us,
but we
take a lot of risks. So MN's take calculated risks, but they'll take big risks.
If they feel like they've got the evidence doesn't mean they don't fall. They can still fall. You know, the big businesses can still fall big leaders. MF will take a more emotional risk. Like, based on an emotional feeling, which ends, go, that's so stupid. And they're probably right a lot of the time. But it's an emotional response as opposed to a strategic mental approach.
There's a difference. But risk taking is part of it to be alive and to keep growing, to keep more and more experiential. So, it's action. Whereas a neutral will make decisions, but they want to have, I want to know all the pros and cons first. I want to know what the backstory is, what the history is. And when I've considered all of that, then I'll make my decision.
It's naturally cautious. It's naturally researching. Again, that's a strength. That's not a bad thing. That's a strong thing. But for masculine, it's like, this is so tiny. You're talking about that. I'm talking about this over here for the world and you're about that. And so they fight a lot. And neutrals are always trying to calm down the enthusiasm of the masculine and what and the grandiosity of what they think they can do.
Which is delusional at times, let's be honest. But the passion is there. And the neutrals go, that's not realistic. So, you'll know if you've got neutral because you'll know you are cautious with decisions. Especially big decisions. Life changes, changing jobs. Going for a promotion, moving, going interstate, changing relationships, like change, wow.
You, you want to, you want to see if you can research it all before you work out whether you should do it or not, and you can't look up, should I change jobs, should I, you can't look it up on Google, can you? Should Katie change jobs? It's really hard, so you try to get evidence. You try to get facts to guarantee which is the right way to go.
It's just a natural building block way, Mim, of how you do things. So you can be bossy. Neutrals can be really bossy, like sergeant majors in the army. Do this. That's the rule. No, you're out. You did not take that form. You did not follow the process. This here is for everyone. It's transparent. You don't get to take shortcuts.
Now, you know, masculines take shortcuts. And we should be called to account. We should be transparent. Like it fucks everyone over. We feel entitled. We think the rules don't apply to me. You have them if you like, but I think they're stupid. Oh, I didn't write them. So who can you hear the language and that gets us into trouble all the time and then neutrals Being around a masculine feels unsafe.
It feels out of control. It feels like a threat to their ordered world and their stability And so then they'll throw in more rules I'll even make rules up on the spot if need be and in relationships too. I'll throw handbrake on go What the fuck is going on? They wouldn't say that out loud though because I don't swear like masculines do I do not.
There's no need for that language. There's no call for it. Just can you just say it calmly without being abusive? Like seriously. Let's have some respect here. Let's just turn it all around. You've just set the fire a light in a masculine, whereas the masculine, talking like that to neutral, they're never gonna trust you ever.
You are a hothead. You are totally unreliable and untrustworthy. Steer clear of that one and say no to everything
they ask.
When you name it like that, it's like, how could you confuse the two, really?
You can't confuse the
two.
Yeah.
And one goes cold and numb and doesn't want to feel
anything,
whereas the Ms are feeling intensely. So are you an intense feeler?
Fiery. And, and then, okay, the, the feminine, how might a feminine think they're masculine? I know it's a far stretch, but
Oh no, there is
like,
you go, I know where you're going.
Yeah. Yeah.
Did you know, Mim, that some archetypes of the feminine, not all, but some, have tantrums. They cry, they go off their little trees. You did this to me, you did that to me, you're so awful. And they get angry and they express their anger. But it's about how badly they've been hurt.
And how angry they are that you did not look after me. You did not parent me. You were not there for me. You were mean to me. Like, that's where they go. And they think that that means they're masculine. But in life, they're not decisive at all. They've got to ask this one and that one. What do you think? My friend thinks I should do this.
I'm not sure whether I should do that. I don't know. I don't want to be the outright leaders. They don't, they don't want to lead a whole lot of people as an exuberant leader, like thousands come and join me on this amazing persona archetype journey that they're not leading. I want to be attached to someone who's a leader.
They can even be a bit entrepreneurial and they're definitely creative. They've got great gifts, but they want to come in with, but under like, I don't, they're not wanting to be the out one on top, but if they think that you'd have hurt them, they'll go off. And get very distressed. Some it will take a lot to get them there, others it doesn't take a lot to get them there.
And underneath they're panicking. And so you see this explosion. That's not the masculine. That's not, I want to be the leader. I feel better than everyone else. I want to make every decision. I want to make your decisions. I want to make your decisions. They're like, Oh, I don't want to make other people's decisions.
Do you see, do you see what I'm saying, darling? And on the other side of that, they've got passion and creativity, and they actually go very well with the masculine when they're able to be an adult, but when they're in their child self. They become hard work,
Draining.. Does that make sense?
Yeah, what I'm hearing is, um, masculine anger, which is the, the real anger really, comes from self belief, whether it's healthy or inflated. And then the feminine quote unquote anger comes from low self esteem.
Yeah.
Well,
Is that
an accurate way of?
it's, that's a very interesting concept. My God, woman, go you, that's a very interesting thing. It's a, I feel like that anger that goes off because actually we all have anger, but we can have some people keep their anger very, very deeply buried. Which is very unhealthy. If you don't have masculine and you don't have access to that creative fire, it really matters.
It's your life force energy, but people are frightened of it. They don't want to come across as an arrogant wanker like we do when we're in child. Like, they don't want to look like us. So then they bury it. They don't trust it, but they're never going to be like this
because they're never going to be primary masculine.
It's only just going to be
coming in. It's going to just bring their F and their N to
life. The F when it goes off is
about how others have hurt them.
Yeah.
So, and that they should have looked
after me.
And wanting others to
yeah, to rescue them or make
the decisions for them. you
promised me the world.
That's it.
you let me down because now I have to make a decision or now I
have to put
in the And and they don't want to make the
decisions they want to be looked after. This is only in child but Child feminine is
I'm going to do what and be whatever you want. But you look after me make my decisions lead my life. Like I'm not prepared to take that responsibility on but some of them get very upset if I don't think you've led me and given me what you promised and the masculine's do over promise this is a very again, I'll say we don't have a clue about love people think that that's love, finding that, this, that it's not at all, it's a, neither party is met and it's got nothing to do with love, it's got to do with co dependency and a lack of awareness of all that's inside of us, a belief of inferiority and I'm, I just couldn't possibly do it myself and that's not the truth, they, every feminine can lead their own lives, they just have never been
aware of that.
Doesn't come
up naturally for them.
No. And then on the note of how they each experience anger for primary neutrals, um, when I meet them, they're like, what do you mean? I'm masculine. And I get, I get angry. Um, when I, when I give, ask them to give examples of when they've gotten angry, it tends to be when they haven't had control when
something hasn't gone to plan.
That's neutral.
And then they want control back again. And, and it will be directive and lecturing in the way that they go off and that that's not appropriate. And, you know, if they were giving a mark, you get a D minus. And we need to pull it back to this, we need to pull it back to that. So often a word that could be used would be frustrated, or I'm annoyed, or I'm, you know, it's contained.
With the masculine it's a full burn fire and you know when you've been scorched by it you know when you've burnt but it's a it's a controlled you've it's the discipline in the neutral the natural self discipline which is a great strength but in the darkness it's like the need for order and control is a killer of their own freedom of expression and their own fire and then they'll do it to others as well and they'll get angry if they sense they don't have control.
The ability to control their world and their environment and their relationship. So that's when it
comes up.
Yep. Yep. And maybe this is the time to raise, I wanted to ask you about, um, in the field of psychology when it comes to anger, it's often labeled as a secondary emotion. Um,
what is your view of, of that?
So here we're going to expose what a rebel I've been working for myself for 35 years. Do they really? I didn't know that. Can you
inform me a little bit more about that?
Oh God.
instantly going,
So yeah, so
the fuck?
I know, I know as a primary masculine, I'm like, oh, fucking the it 'cause anger is such an important emotion
that it tells us when something isn't okay,
it goes, whoa, fuck, that was not good. I need to speak out about that. I need to draw a line.
Um, it's a fuel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
this idea that anger is, um, a secondary emotion.
It's like the core emotion that anger is hiding things, um, like from is like the core feeling is sadness or grief
or loss,
but.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah,
I've got it. I got it. I got it. In fact, can I say, I'd put it this way. The masculine is, is, anger is not a problem for us. It's a life force energy. We like it. We're comfortable with it because the other side of anger is passion. So it's our capacity to birth things. Anger also tells us when something has been violated within us, like a boundary has been crossed, what you just said, Mim, a boundary has been crossed.
And if you feel that flicker, it's telling you, have a look at this. This, this isn't feeling right. My soul is going. But another part of us might second guess it and doubt it and go, oh no, it should be all right. You know, I trust them. They'll be okay. Da da da da da. But so anger is a warning sign saying that something is out of alignment, something you, I am taking me somewhere that's not right or someone else is asking me to go somewhere that's not right.
It's not always someone else's fault. It can be my choices too that are making me angry and the way I am and I'm going against what my soul wants. So anger is, a message from the soul that we're out of alignment. That's, I think, is one of the things. But masculines are not keen on showing their vulnerability and showing, if they've done a lot of work, then they get much better at it.
But, There is sadness, there is grief, there is loss, there's a disempowerment. Anger is about disempowerment, feeling unempowered in something that matters. And we are so unaware of what, what the real reasons are of what things are going on. Like the story we tell on the one ninth of the iceberg above the ocean.
It's never what it's about, Mim. And most people only talk about what it isn't. But underneath, yes. There's often sadness, loss, grief that is underneath the anger. So I think every masculine in remorse has, and few masculines ever want to feel their remorse. But in therapy, you definitely get taken there.
And in my work, you get taken there is to feel the remorse, the pain, the sadness. There's, it's, and then the anger goes because we're, we could be angry forever. Like it's an addiction. Every M, F and N, there's addictions, there's emotional addictions for the archetypes. So we're comfortable there, but you never get to what it's really about.
There's always, there is something underneath there. But anger is incredibly vital in and of itself. It's also, it's it's one of the stages of grief. So there's about a loss. On some level, like I'm missing out on this. I've, I've lost this part of myself by going down this path. I've lost this part of myself for saying yes to that relationship list to that opportunity.
Like it'll be saying that there's something not right there. And we don't know to then go and dig in and find out what's not feeling right here. Cause it's like, it's a warning bell. It's not about attacking someone else and you know, blaming and projecting and It's it can be that but that's never it's always about something else and it can be where we've taken ourselves actually.
iYeah, t makes me
Without realizing. Without realizing.
Yeah,
I think the, the idea of, um, anger being secondary, like a cover for what we're really feeling is when it's not about what's in front of us, when our anger is disproportionate and not relevant to the situation or person in front of us, and it's historic, then there's probably other emotions we need to go to.
But if anger
is relevant and proportional to the moment, like someone's just pushed us off the sidewalk, like that's something to get angry about, then it's just anger. It's nothing where you have to look necessarily much deeper.
I would look every time. I'd I'd look every time.
You would okay. Mm-Hmm.
I would and every emotion actually Mim.
I I think I think emotions are doorways to the eight ninths in ourselves. The bits the unconscious in our soul. So if I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling frustrated, I'm feeling stressed and worried. They're all doors.
And there's more information for me to find out. We, when we're angry, it'll be about how we're perceiving something,
what we think it means.
You know, you get pushed off the
sidewalk, you'll
perceive it
as disrespect maybe, that's where some, and disrespect will be something that triggers anger for certain
archetypes for the rest of their life.
Mm-Hmm.
The way people drive, you know, cut in front of me, fuckers,
you know, that's disrespectful. So disrespect will be the trigger to anger, but what if you went deeper, what if you went, I love this
conversation, where are we going by the
way, thank you. What if we went deeper to everything is a mirror of
me and I'm perceiving disrespect there, I'm angry at disrespect.
If I went deeper, is there some way I'm not
respecting myself right now?
Oof.
Yeah.
Where
am I disrespecting myself? And then
there's the
doorway that anger just gave you.
Mm
And there always will be. You can't, anything
you're feeling out there is about your
relationship with yourself.
Mm And I think that that's a good segue into the really important question that brings us back to relationships specifically, is how do masculine unintentionally set themselves up for heartbreak?
They set themselves up for heartbreak with their arrogance. By innately believing they are entitled, they are better than, they are superior. And this comes out even when we try to hide it, unless it's been a lot of work and humility, this comes out in so many ways until eventually even the most passive people just go, I'm not doing it anymore.
It's this inability to see and appreciate the value of all people and to, to value their gifts. And not see yourself as this, I'm more exceptional. It's their exceptionalism. It's their entitlement and it's the way they talk down. Like we get angry and then we're over it. Others are on the floor for the next month wounded.
And I hear that those words said for the next 15 years of their lives. Did you? I didn't even remember saying it. You know, the casual, harsh, fiery lightning bolts that are thrown. And so if we're not connected to our hearts, if we're not connected to our sensitive parts of ourselves and are just driven, me, me, me, me, me, glory, success, I'm going to have this.
We will fuck up our relationships. People will not feel valued. They will come second. And then it does break their hearts and they, and then sometimes they'll go into blame. They just weren't loyal. They couldn't stick through the hard yards with me because there were lots of hard times to get to success.
That's not it at all. You didn't value them. You gave very little of yourself, very little time. You're only interested in them when they're helping your cause. You end up lonely and they, they don't realize that that drivenness and they say, Oh, it's for them to provide for them. Everyone dadada. No, it makes others feel not chosen, not valued, not loved.
There's not enough sacrificing going on with the masculine. To value the relationships first. And so they're not valuing the connection here being whole. They're just so driven. Like they're fast when they're going at a pace, then it's hard to stop them when they're excited. Would you agree?
Yeah. And it reminds me, we forgot to, we alluded to it, but, um, professions that you would find primary
masculines in
just to name
a couple.
Often in their own business. It depends
on their other archetypes that they've got that within them as to where they're gone. But they'll be, they'll be aiming to be the top, they'll be aiming to be the top business, definitely, entrepreneurial, definitely. An idea that I can share with others that I can do, definitely.
But they're not going to be coming in, oh, I'd like to go to an existing organisation and work within them. They're going to have trouble. If you know of Shane Warne and his battles with Cricket Australia. You know, it gets to a point and they just totally self destruct like we can't follow rules like that.
It's, it's interesting. Now with the young ones coming through, I love football. Like I watch many games every week and I count the nights till the next game, the sleeps to the next one. It's pathetic, but that's the masculine. It's very competitive by the way. I didn't say that very competitive. So we love our sport.
Love it. There's a young team that's coming through. They've won nine of their last 11 games Hawthorne. They've just been in the doldrums for years and here they come. They've got this great coach. He's got a lot of young M's in the team and they're out there with their selfies. This doesn't happen on the football field and the coach is letting them go with it.
Like Shane Warne would have loved to have had, but he was born in the wrong era. And so they're allowed to be that like Robbie Williams on stage when he's doing his thing, you know, they're allowed to be that. And they've got this. Comradeship and brotherhood and this excitement and their exuberance has been fostered.
And the older players in the team said, I don't even know what they're talking about. Are they going away? They're doing all their social media stuff. I don't even know what they're doing. But they're great and they come along and we're having a great time and they're good players. And it's like, that's the right way to mentor an MF.
And they're now looking like world beaters. Absolutely, they're even my second team. This is a big statement. They've graduated to being my boys number two. They're not my number one boys. So, um, that's really interesting that that sort of career, it's like to be the best. It's, they want to be seen. You said that about tension, didn't you?
That there's that, you know, They want to be the star, they want to be loved. It's not important to be loved for the MN in, but being to the mega top, the GOAT. Hello. Oh yeah. That, is that
helpful?
Yeah. Great. And, and I think, um, you know, you named a few in there, but where might be nice to end is ways in which masculine feel most loved.
Oh.
How, how, people can talk to them, show up for them. How does a masculine feel most seen, heard and loved?
Alright. When they come and tell you an idea that they've got, don't nod. Don't go, oh that's good, that's nice.
Is your blood
boiling right now
as I say that,
Yes.
I hate that. Don't tell me. It's nice. Tell me it's fucking epic. Like.
Exactly.
Like,
Thank you
very much,
M, some of the M, not all of them, but
some of the M archetypes love compliments and give a lot of compliments. Thanks. They like a lot of compliments. Like, they like having their strengths named and appreciated. They really need a lot of stroking and being appreciated. And you've got to love it.
Don't say you like it. But for neutrals, it's like, I don't like using the word love.
Like, likes enough.
And we'll
see whether it's
got legs.
Or nice or good.
No
And then the feminines go, I don't mind. Yeah, it's it's extravagant.
it's big. It's so where M's are heartbroken is when they feel too much. Where they have to hold themselves back because people can't manage the size of their energy and we know that and as you're getting more self aware and you've done more work on yourself.
It's like I don't wanna overwhelm people. I don't wanna be too much but then we feel like we can't be ourselves and present ourselves in our work and relationships and that breaks our heart Mim. And we will have epic falls. I'd love people to understand that we're going to go for it. We're going to be brave.
We're going to be pioneers. We're going to be innovators. That's a common thread. We're going to be leaders, but it doesn't mean we're going to be always successful, but we will rise up again. And if you're, that's not your style, you're steady and sure and fantastic. We have to honor the styles that we're born with and be supportive.
And sometimes M's can get, be into this pit of despair because they were so sure it was going to work and it didn't. And then the people that love them can go, but this is you. You actually can't give this up this lifetime. Like, so let's go for it again. You'll find your new way forward. I'm with you for it.
I'll keep doing this. I'll do my way. You go your way. I love your passion. I love your excitement. I love your charisma. I love that. But maybe we'll put in a little bit of this just to make sure you don't have the fall anymore. I reckon that would work. You know, it's only, you only need to put a little bit of the one you're missing and it changes the outcomes completely.
So we want people who are not shying away when we get too excited, that can actually listen and stand there with us. We don't need you to be the same. We need you not to be frightened. If we get angry about stuff and realize it's not about you, it's about frustration that things aren't happening
quickly enough.
Yeah, and, and not to, I like how you said in the other episode,
not to throw a cold bucket of water on us.
Is the worst.
Because we'll just get harsher and argumentative. Whereas if we go, I so
get why you're
angry. You've got every
right.
I so get why you're
frustrated. And frustrated is not a strong enough word.
I so get
this. You're, you've put so much into this. The minute you feel heard as a masculine, even if what we're saying from the top 1th obviously is not going to be accurate, it's going to have blame in it, and it's not going to be having any self awareness in it.
We, you validate, I get why you're feeling that way when you've killed yourself for so long, years, decades maybe for this. I so get it. I go say it and you let them, they'll calm down straight away. Cause it feels like they've been heard. If it feels like you haven't heard me, I'm just going to keep escalating, which is not what
N's and F's want.
Um, beautiful. Well, I think we've covered everything. Is there anything you feel is missing?
No,
I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed where we're going, Mim. It's just lovely.
I, and I just, I just really hope because my masculine, you're masculine, like we're really passionate about helping free people to be their whole selves. We're so passionate. We fuck it up we're imperfect. We make mistakes and our mistakes are not little because we are primary M.
But our passion and our intent is, we love, we love big. We have big love. So when you harness that in a masculine, it's great. So NMs and NF's and FN's. Think of the fiery love. The passionate love. Wouldn't you like to bring that in? There is a lot of good here. You'll never come across as arrogant as us.
You rest assured it'll
never happen.
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Katie. I look forward to the next episode.
Thank you!
